Need Advice on How to Spread Interest in MMI

Mind Matter Interaction
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For over 27 years I devoted my life to MMI research and development. In that time I became a world expert in the theory and technology. For me the challenge of an extremely difficult technology with the potential of world-changing developments is irresistible.

Perhaps, being an MMI nerd I hadn’t realized how different my perspective is. What I learned more recently is, it’s a number of different people interacting, discussing, brainstorming and building on the foundation of previous work that makes the technology meaningful.

What I need and am asking for are ideas from everyone else how to attract a broader group of people who are interested in MMI, and some who may want to get involved with developing that possible world-changing technology. Please forgive my assumptions even in what I am asking for – I don’t fully understand what the question should be or how to properly ask it.

I greatly appreciate anything anyone wants to contribute.

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Hi Scott,

I think you would know better than anyone about the MMI field? And you’ve been successful outside of the MMI field?

I haven’t really had recognition or acceptance for my own inventions, I’ve always been the one asking “how to make a mission successful” and not really getting any answers that worked. People invariably paint a picture of the world that just isn’t how it is, and gloss over many deep issues that stop their answers working.

I think Randonauts were using my temporal invention, although not properly crediting it. (Everyone I talked to who tried ‘temporal’, said it gave better results. yet when I brought this up with the randonauts dev team, I got slapped back with a remark of “you should be careful making claims like that”.)

Which is funny cos is not a claim. I’m simply talking about the people I talked to. “Claims” are normally things made by people who are SELLING STUFF. I wasn’t selling anything. I was GIVING STUFF. For free.

I kinda felt like some kid proudly showing a nice crayon painting I made and getting some hostile grizzled-looking teacher treat me like I’m some kind of yobbo who is a danger and a bad person. When clearly it was just the teacher’s own issues to shout at some kid like that.

…

Anyhow to answer your question.

Heres my thoughts:

  1. Try to make the idea cool or sexy or whatever. Get people the idea that they can “slide” the MMI stuff into their own products… secretly. Probably games are a good place to start, but it could be anything. It would really be cool to see characters in the world react to you in mysterious ways.

    Just something to make it “exciting” or funny, to nerds.

    I could imagine a community forming. Not centralised to one dev-group, but more like a “buzz” or scene thing… articles / videos popping up and people just deciding to “give it a go”.

    The main thing is… people will want to “know that it works”.

    Thats got to be the biggest draw. If there’s not an easy way to test the MMI thing… for themselves… very few will have the spare-time to put aside.

  2. Find people already using MMI in their products… or trying to, and help make their product successful.

Also… it would need to be easy to test. Not a “we need to buy hardware” thing. Well its obvious the code I wrote would be a good start for that. Literally you need zero new hardware, not even a camera.

With billions of people using multiple devices… and servers all over the planet… thats a huge potential for temporal randomness to take over the world…

Finally… it might just be a matter of time. Some things might not be possible before a certain time. Hopefully soon? But till the bus arrives you can’t get moving. I’m just really feeling its about ‘time’. We’ll know when the time hits.

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Hi, thanks so much for taking the time to reply. Sorry, sounds like you have had a negative experience with MMI, at least in one context. I have had some success with other inventions – the pulse oximeter being the most well known, now a worldwide standard of treatment. I never pushed myself in public so other people got most of the credit for it years later when it was a big success. That was In spite of my starting the first company making them, being granted the first patent and selling them for years before anyone else. Interestingly, at first doctors attacked the idea because they didn’t understand how it worked, but much later the same doctors claimed to have been part of creating it.

I suspect people think MMI should be like flipping a light switch. That is, it takes no effort and works perfectly every time. The state of the art is not at that point yet. We used MMI systems to predict simple lottery results (pick 3, the simplest kind) and red or black on a roulette wheel. Our test bets always made real money in hundreds of tests, but it was never easy.

I suppose the fact it is not yet perfect is a big downside. Plus, when we had a large-scale server online making it easily available, almost no one knew what MMI was. Definitely too early for general acceptance.

I do have the software-enabled true random number generator (the PCQNG) that currently works on PCs, but PCs are not really mainstream these days. I would like to understand temporal randomness. Could you please explain what you mean.

I will mull over your other suggestions. Thanks again.

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Hi Scott,

Well my experience is something maybe I should deal with quietly… and it was just in one context, amoungst a much bigger positive experience with the group. Although it does direct the “resources” away from me to get further development.

Yes of course MMI isn’t so simple as pushing a button :slight_smile:

What did your MMI server do?

Temporal randomness? I think you already understand it haha :slight_smile: You called it “instruction jitter” I think? And you said that most of the variation within a CPU will be voltage or heat-based, which are very good sources of entropy. (I think you wrote that?)

Simply put, any code will take a different amount of time to run, each time you run it. So we make a few short instructions, and time it, run those instructions as long as you want to collect as much entropy as you want.

The reason I like temporal is that it is “physically neutral”. Imagine some kind of alien or “other being” (Ghost in the machine) Trying to affect the computer to “send signals to us”. With temporal… all they need to do is change HOW LONG the computer takes to do something. Create tiny obstacles.

If we are measuring voltage only, the alien has to input voltage to affect the measurement, which could cause undesirable effects, or even damage the equipment. Being “physically neutral” seems like “the alien” can modify the timing in any way they feel like, so (in my mind) it seems a really versatile form of input.

Temporal just one approach. Like we have multiple senses (smelling, sight, touch). So its a good sense to start with, but once people are accustomed to the concept of MMI and entropy, they could “graduate” to other more interesting sources.

I don’t expect one person to do all those suggestions. (Make the whole MMI cool and exciting and funny to nerds and make videos on it). Needs a diverse group to do that (you said that right?). Maybe more of a prerequisite than suggestion…

I don’t know anything much. Those were just my thoughts :slight_smile:

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Theres also “battle of wills”. 100 people using MMI to predict the lottery, will cancel each other out. It also has to fight against normal psychic intuition without the MMI?

Was predicting the lottery the most successful thing you could predict or were other things (maybe guessing the weather) easier?

I’m wondering if we could devise an experiment that is:

  1. Easy to run (not many lines of code)
  2. Doesnt have a battle of wills, but more collaborative instead.
  3. Gives reliable results over a period of time? (this is where your expertise comes in the most cos I have NO idea)
  4. Appeals to nerds, something kinda exciting or fascinating they could adapt for their own purposes.

Maybe if we can find some machine-learning experts… we could increase reliability… the machine-learning thing can detect patterns in the randomness.

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The MMI or Mind-Enabled Server connected to a large collection of hardware MMI generators and made a unique connection available over the Internet to anyone using our Unity app on their local computer. The app included training, testing and contest programs, as well as live stock market prediction, various lottery predictors and a few other programs. The system was designed to provide up to 1000 simultaneous connections.

If you are interested, I can guide you through a step-by-step development process for making the temporal randomness idea into a fully qualified MMI generator. That would include measuring and optimizing the amount of entropy gathered, making sure the statistical properties are as desired or specified and some additional – not yet public – tricks for increasing its MMI capabilities. I don’t presume you want or need this, it’s just an offer. If interested, we should start a new thread called “temporal randomness generator” or some similar variation.

You are right, one person cannot do everything that may be needed to get MMI into general use. In fact, if one person did everything, MMI would still not be in general use. Every idea is valuable and important so I appreciate your input.

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First, a technical comment:
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding about what an MMI predictor is doing. Each person is not trying to influence the outcome of the lottery, but rather to predict what the outcome will be. If we want 100 people to contribute to predicting a particular lottery, each of them will be working with their own entropy source and likely at different times. Most importantly, each of them will be receiving some form of real-time feedback as they perform trials designed to add information to the collective information pool. When each person is finished (or during the process, after each trial), their results will be supplied to a central or shared location where it is all combined using an appropriate information processing algorithm. In this way there is very little cross talk or interference between their results. In the same way, an individual’s intuition would not interfere unless it is being used to add information to the collective information pool. Appropriate information processing could be a Bayesian algorithm. In a Bayesian algorithm, each person contributing information would have a weight assigned that is based on previous accuracy of prediction. The personal weight would be updated as new results are obtained. The weights tell the algorithm how much it should rely on the information from each person. Sounds a little complicated, but all the processing would be invisible to the participants.

The ease of prediction is directly related to the amount of information being predicted. Information content in bits is about log (base 2) of the number of possible outcomes. For example, a coin flip or red/black on a roulette wheel have only one bit of information. That makes these two examples the easiest things to predict. A Powerball lottery has 69 different balls and requires 5 balls to be picked. (Take the Binomial coefficient to get the number of possibilities of 69 things taken 5 at a time.) That’s 24 bits of information. Then there is a single pick from 26 balls, which is another 5 bits of information. The total information content is 29 bits (rounded up from the theoretical 28.1224) – a stunningly difficult problem compared to the 1 bit of information for a roulette wheel red or black prediction.

These explanations gives some context to the question of how difficult and how accurate any particular experiment may be. Yes, we can avoid a battle of wills; and yes, reliable results can be achieved over time. The number of lines of code would not be excessive for each individual (remote) device, but would be more complex where information processing combines individual results. Still, modern devices would not be bogged down with any reasonably designed code. However, an optimized system would take some significant programming. As far as making it appealing, that is really a separate question.

I have used artificial neural networks to enhance pattern recognition and I noted up to a doubling of effect size with some types of test data. I have a friend who is an expert in machine learning and he has offered to process stored data to look for patterns. Neither of these is what I would call a simple project, but ultimately doable.

Sorry if this sounds too technical, but it is only intended to give an idea what might be possible.

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In my experience, there is one effective model for attracting enthusiasts:

  • It is necessary to create a large community of simply interested people who are kind of involved in the process. According to the laws of Internet sociology, approximately 1% of members of any community are active contributors, the rest are beholders. Thus, in a community of 1000 people, there are somewhere about 10 people with skills who will offer their help in development and they can be invited to a more specialized forum.

  • To create a community of 1000 people, you need to have a certain technological attractor, which will consolidate this community around itself. It should be some kind of publicly available free interface with which all participants can interact and experiment. The interface should be based on MMI technology, be extremely easy to use and produce results that the participants can discuss in the community. For example online version of Psi-trainer or something like that. There should also be a chat where the community can showcase the results of these interactions. The more they try to interact with the interface, the more they will want to tell others about it.
    At first, the community will simply exchange their points for training, but over time, people with new ideas and initiatives will begin to appear in it. It is important to notice them in time and involve them in the overall development process.

  • In order for people to appear in this community initially, it is necessary to carry out primary work on advertising the above-mentioned interface in the related thematic communities. Reddit, telegram chats, tiktok are well suited. You shouldn’t be picky about the audience, it will still be statistically filtered out. The most effective advertising is based on messages with partial understatement. When there are deliberate gaps in the information, consciousness tries to fill them and projects the wildest expectations onto them. As a result, a person motivates himself to search for information, and when he finds it, he sees great importance in it, since he spent efforts on finding it.
    Many people potentially interested in MMI may not yet know what MMI is, you need to intrigue them and convince them to figure it out so that they come to the community.

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Thanks, great information and advice! My approach has been trying to attract active members, which has had a certain success, but in no way yet toward general acceptance. I suppose this is obvious in hindsight and was a mistake on my part. When I had the infrastructure to provide MMI servers and user apps, there was very little interest. However, I did not get into social media to promote the concept, and it was before the public was introduced to the idea of mind-matter interaction.

The posts in this forum may be of a technical nature. Do you think it is okay to mix some more technical threads with more general or casual interest posts? What I am asking is, should there be one technical and one more general forum, or just one forum that includes both?

It’s no problem releasing a public version of ME Trainer (formerly PsiTrainer), but it currently only works on PCs because it uses a version of the hardware-enabled TRNG (the PCQNG) as the entropy source. Do you think it will be necessary to have an entropy source that works on phones and other mobile devices to reach a large enough audience? I expect the answer is probably, “yes,” but it’s no small project to enable MMI on new platforms. It’s not something I can personally accomplish, since I am only competent programming in Mathematica that I use to model systems and test algorithms.

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I think forum is not that big yet, so both topics can coexist in it without problem.

You can make a web-version of METrainer and feed MEdrive entropy to it from the server. Phone apps are definitely a challenge and there is not good enough solution yet to produce entropy on the phone, but people are working in that direction. I know projects like Temporal and CamRNG, that have potential.

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The RDTSC instruction works on Mac/Linux/PC. So… its no issue.

ARM (mobiles/tablets) however is trickier. ARM doesn’t have a reliable high-precision time instruction… It has one but it’s awkward and not high-precision, and not all ARM CPUs contain it.

My temporal app has code to check the time on both platforms…

We could copy small bits of code from temporal to make the ME Trainer work on all platforms. GitHub - gamblevore/temporal: Generate physically-based randomness using rdtsc is the link!

One trick (for ARM) I found is… instead of checking “how long some code took to run”… we do something else.

We “see how many times we can run the code” before the clock ticks to the next tick.

So… instead of measuring x, we measure 1/x basically lol. Same deal. It works with low-precision timers.

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Its an amazing offer, and I am deeply honoured you would do that.

However I think right now I only have a desire to play with these things. I have wants but not a “need”.

If this is a “one time offer” (let’s say you’d be too busy at a later date) I’d rather take it NOW, than never lol. I’ll probably need it sometime!

" In fact, if one person did everything, MMI would still not be in general use"

I’ve been seeing that myself. Connections are everything. Just like neurons firing up or something. Doing everything yourself just… doesnt get that buzz going. Unless its a computer game I guess? Even then you gotta be lucky.

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Also some links about Camera RNG

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The offer to help perfect the temporal RNG is open-ended, but one never knows for sure what and when things will change in the future. It doesn’t have to happen all at once. The first step is probably to measure statistical properties of the generator by sending the output of your current version into the RNGMeter (on the ComScire.com Downloads page). It will measure the entropy and other statistical properties directly and can take streaming data from most sources or from large files if that is easier. I believe others here have used the test suite if there are implementation questions beyond the included instructions.

It’s a modest incremental step, but I don’t expect anyone to do anything unless they want to for their own reasons.

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Let me make a little bit of coming out. I practice magic for 21 years. And I think, that magic is literally practical application of MMI. We influence “quantum random processes” in world to get desired outcome. My main interest in MMI is construction of spirit-machine interface. Think about it as artifical body, which can contain soul and make it to exchange information with computer. I think, REG based interface has better potential than EVP, because, probably, it works on same principle.
I put quantum random processes in quotas because I has some other ideas how it might really work. But that ideas are not developed enough to tell about them in field of science.
Also, I want to research magic scientifically. Yes, I’ve seen results of magic work for thousands of times. But I still don’t know magic good enough to even tell all factors, which are needed to make operation successfull. I don’t know how to perform experiment, which will DEFINITELY produce occult phenomena.
I can’t even measure magic better than with Shulgin scale for psychodelics. Which is quite subjective.
Alan Moore told once, that Magic is, at best, Palaeolithic science. And he is right. Magic isn’t mistake. But it’s really underdeveloped in terms of theory and verification. And it can’t be fixed without measurement devices.
And I’m not only one sorcerer, who is annoyed with these problems.
So, I think, that it might be good idea to promote MMI in occult community.It can work nicely for divination, electronic ouija board and other implementations.

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@ScottWilber I think it’s fine indeed to mix topics of technical and non-technical casual issues. If the community ever grows big enough one day, we’ll likely see a natural split of the ‘beholders’ taking the non-tech talks elsewhere and the technical topics remaining in this forum (or perhaps vice versa) or maybe one day some of us will make a group decision to somehow restructure things to make it easier/nicer for everyone in the community. Who knows, I don’t think we need to worry about that too much right now.

How many generators did you have plugged into the Mind Enabled server? I assume it was shutdown because of lack of use/interest and ongoing operational costs? If you don’t mind me asking, what was the cost of keeping it running?

Like @wizbiz said, his temporal library works on phones (I helped him integrate it into an app) so that is one possible source of entropy, along with the camera RNG projects and going forward we have the ability to plug MEDs right into Androids. We could also have apps get their source from the net but that brings with it the problematic nature of latency which has been discussed elsewhere on this forum. The fact your original app was made in Unity makes it quite easy to run on various platforms from PCs to mobiles to even as webapps (I’ve spent the past decade doing a lot of that).

In terms of ‘spreading the word’, being open to anyone and everyone who are just nice people and genuinely interested in someway, either just to play with the ideas, or maybe get real down and dirty with some of the theory and concepts. Focusing on end-users right now is probably too early for some things as the nature of MMI is going to yield a lot of “wow that worked amazingly” vs “dang it didn’t do anything for me” (leading to a lot of disappointed experiences). I like the approach of continued growth in collaborating ideas, discussions and development work with the likes of the curious explorers who are already here. One interim approach could be to contact other labs/institutes/research centers who are in the field to see if they’re interested in joining. Are you actively looking for members to join? I can’t say I’ve done much in that regard, other than just send invite links to some people I already knew.

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This reply is in two parts because it deals with opening the forum to general access and also several technical points.

I want to see the forum widely open to whomever is interested and increase membership accordingly. To save time and energy, the structure should be one that already exists that can just be tweaked if necessary. I suggest it have the following rules:

  1. It should include an email type of confirmation to ensure every subscriber is a person.
  2. Everyone must agree to the Terms of Use (TOU) to become a member and read or post material.
  3. The forum should not be a platform for personal attacks or totally off-topic posts – let’s keep it friendly.
  4. If people copy, use or repost original material from the forum posts, they must give proper attribution (reference) to the original author(s).

I think these requirements are minimal and are intended to keep the conversations interesting, friendly and constructive. Let me know if I am off-base on any of these ideas. Otherwise, let’s do it now. Any additional comments?

With respect to my earlier work, the system I set up was extremely sophisticated. It was designed to provide 1000 simultaneous user connections, each with their own unique MMI generator operating real time. Most of the processing was done at the server level and communication between server and user was done by a custom Internet protocol to minimize latency. All data was timestamped with a GPS time system to the nearest 2ms of UTC (as close as a Windows OS timestamp can be in normal operation) so we could accurately track latency. It also had a data logging computer that stored all raw trial information and results for each user. Users could simply log in and be connected with access to a number of applications as well as see individual result tracking and leader boards. This system was way too far ahead of the social awareness of MMI and its potential.

When browsers started blocking most applications, the Unity user apps stopped working on one browser after another, till they didn’t work on any. Eventually other parts of the system became obsolete due to “upgrades.” I just didn’t have the programming support to maintain such a complex system. Other costs of maintaining the system included monthly Internet charges and AWS (needed because the system was designed for a high level of performance). The cost to build the MMI hardware was about $80,000, not including development, which was several times that. The cost of software development, which is usually the most expensive part of technological projects, was several times the total of the hardware development.

Future MMI entropy availability will likely include individual hardware, software-enabled generation as well as servers for higher-end users and those who don’t want to obtain special hardware.

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I’ll get onto opening up the forum as mentioned above. First I’ll work on a basic TOU. The forum’s pretty much in the default setup from what David did for us last year so I’ll see if there’s anything else that needs to be setup first.

Probably the reason why the Unity app stopped working is was that it’d been released as a Unity Web Player app - basically that meant you needed to have Unity’s Web Player plugin installed in your browser. But that went the same way as Flash and stopped working on browsers a few years ago as Unity did away with it. They do now have an alternative which is a Unity webapp that runs in WebGL, no plugin required.

What were the monthly AWS costs?

I was just asking you these questions to see if you wanted to/considered bringing the system back online, I could handle the “upgrades” and other programming support.

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The forum is now open for anyone to signup with a valid verified e-mail address - it’s no longer invites only.

The terms need to be accepted to sign up and the points above were added to them.

Let me know if you have any questions for me regarding the other topic of restarting the old system.

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Thanks so much for your efforts in opening up the forum and keeping it running. Every member is encouraged to pass on the existence of the forum to everyone they think might be interested. Anyone with ideas for a social media campaign, please…

With regard to restarting my old system, its implementation was too complex to consider a complete reanimation. While I designed pretty much every part, a group of programmers implemented the system over about a year of full-time work. At this point we can look at recovering some parts that will be easier to implement due to previous experience.