Philosophy behind using MMI for resource gains. When is it "too easy"?

Mind Matter Interaction
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Probably related to this thread, but I thought it needed it’s own thread. Is MMI Magic, or is Magic MMI? - #2 by ScottWilber

So I’ve had the idea posed to me by a friend, about using my “temporal-lib” to predict future trends for crypto-trading. I’m not into trading at all, as it seems a way to either lose money or you have to dedicate your life to it… having no time to do other productive things. I’m sure some traders manage to be productive outside of trading though, but I couldn’t.

So anyhow this brings up a lot of interesting questions…

Is it even possible? I remember Scott Wilbur (our MMI inspiration in many ways) talked about winning on slot machines using an “ME-trainer”, but now that I re-read the thread, it seems the gains were statistically-impressive but small in amount, because you should be losing 7% each spin on average.

I wonder if there is some kind of deeper truth behind that. It seems like a “cheat-code” the idea that “you can predict future events to gain some advantage” and “just make easy money” seems too easy.

Let’s say MMI COULD be used to predict future-stocks… Whats to stop everyone using it? Now… the future is no longer predictable. It becomes an arms-race that makes things harder for newcomers.

Secondly… by nature the output is random. So if I have some stocks (or any list of quantitative values), listed by “how much money I think these will gain me”… well that list came from some algorithm. Adding randomness to it, will lower the effectiveness of the algorithm. It is like sorting a list of cards and slightly randomising it, you won’t be picking out the “top-card” anymore.

Randonautica works because it is more about “play”. That is… to show you deep or interesting things (Hopefully) that have meaning to you. It’s more about “allowing some higher forces, or perhaps a deeper part of yourself” to guide you to give you insights or some kind of coincidences.

It’s not so much about “OK find me the location of some buried treasure”. Although the quantum-predictor seems to have some sense of humour involved, so “buried treasure” may end up giving you a buried plastic-toy-chest or something. Either way it’s still “play”.

Let’s say some “spirits” are working to guide the randomness… and some of them “lead you to some money”. They aren’t gonna be doing that for nothing, they want something back. It kind of seems like a “deal with the devil” kind of thing. They might even give you initial wins to “keep you addicted” then trail off the rewards.

OK well my question for Scott (thanks so much for being here!) is…

  1. Why did you stop using the ME to predict slot-machines. Is the gain not worth it?
  2. What if you played a game that was more balanced, like black-jack or roulette? Would you have gained a lot?
  3. If you COULD make large-gains, do you think “something else” would step in to stop you? Some kind of “Deeper law of nature” expressed by real-world events?
  4. Do you think big-banks are already using quantum-systems to predict future events, and could MMI be a way to “level the playing field”?
  5. What do you think are the limits or bounds around using MMI for “Gains over others” (money/resources).

I know I’m putting a lot of “doubt” on the whole thing, and I don’t mean to do that. I do think MMI is definitely “The way forward” for tech in a large way. But I think the main applications haven’t yet been found. Probably we’d want it for some kind of AI where the AI can sense things about the world…

Thanks for anyone who wants to listen or answer!!

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I also had the idea of using my TemporalLib to “sell randomness” but again that seems to be limited by “Trust”… I’d need to be well-known or work with a well-known group…

At least that wouldn’t suffer from ethical concerns.

It would be really great if I find paid work on MMI especially related to my TemporalLib though. I’d love to make some kind of temporal-AI… as long as it had some application and people willing to buy the product.

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Talking to Tobias about this… we had the idea of a “randomised trading system” (haha) where the “amount of money you have” is slightly randomised… meaning you never really know how much money you have.

I think that could be a great idea to kind of “shake up” the whole trading system. Stop all the fin-tech crypto-bros from “gamifying” the entire system to their advantage by winning out on every awkward edge-case.

Life is inherently random (Or unpredictable) anyhow. If you buy an apple, there is no way to say if you like that apple more or less than the next apple. You have to use your instinct to choose the best apples.

Why shouldn’t money be the same way?

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These are very interesting and important points. I will begin to answer as best as I can:

  1. Why did you stop using the ME to predict slot-machines. Is the gain not worth it?

Mind-Enabled Trainer is a tool for learning to use mental influence to obtain information or affect the odds of a seemingly random outcome. The METrainer or other MMI device is not actually used in the casino.

I still go once a week to play the slots. This for entertainment purposes and to try variations of mental effort to gain the most wins.

  1. What if you played a game that was more balanced, like black-jack or roulette? Would you have gained a lot?

The actual amount of the gain is not really important, although it’s fun to occasionally win a Grand. I did a long series with online roulette before it was illegal. Online gaming was selected because it was “real” and involved actual money. The results were completely objective and easy to track. In that case I had a specialized MMI application up on the screen at the same time as the roulette game, and the intention was to make an actual prediction of the winning bet. Bets were simply red or black, not specific numbers, which is much more complex. I was able to shift the odds enough to constantly win over the period of a month, playing many times every day (around a thousand spins altogether).

  1. If you COULD make large-gains, do you think “something else” would step in to stop you? Some kind of “Deeper law of nature” expressed by real-world events?

We use our minds all the time to try to gain positive outcomes, mostly in the more traditional ways of reasoning and inference. Some people are stupendously successful at doing this, whether or not is seems to be for the collective good. Many of those people also use meditation and/or visualization as part of their daily practice of achieving their goals.

I haven’t seen anything or had any experience to suggest using mind more directly – or in any way we can come up with – that would violate any principles of nature. Certainly, some people have doubts or fears that produce a “self-limiting” outcome. A fear may be considered a mental belief or visualization of a negative result. That’s using MMI in a non-beneficial way.

  1. Do you think big-banks are already using quantum-systems to predict future events, and could MMI be a way to “level the playing field”?

Big banks, insurance companies, market makers, etc., use computers and algorithms to gain advantage by classical computational methods (not quantum computers…yet). Definitely not a level playing field for the average person. MMI is a way of gaining information that is non-inferable by any classical means. Therefore, it can theoretically be used to “beat the system.”

  1. What do you think are the limits or bounds around using MMI for “Gains over others” (money/resources).

Mostly answered in no. 3. The Universe (or any other name for “higher” mind or intelligence) seems to allow any level of what humans call injustice or inequality in their affairs. There may be limits, but I suspect we a long way from testing them. Plus, any hypothetical limits may be quite different than we might imagine.

I do think MMI is definitely “The way forward” for tech in a large way. But I think the main applications haven’t yet been found. Probably we’d want it for some kind of AI where the AI can sense things about the world…

I quite agree. For me, MMI (Mind-Enabled systems, etc.) has always been about gaining information and helping us evolve to use our minds in amazing and beneficial ways.

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Hi Scott,

Thanks very much for a very informative reply.

So it seems that worrying about “having it too easy” when setup against a backdrop of giant banks extracting money from everyone with giant money making machines… isn’t a real concern.

Thanks for explaining how you used the METrainer. I found https://coreinvention.com has a download for some software that uses the impressive hardware you created. Is that the ME-trainer you mean? Or is there a different link?

Thanks for the detailed stories on your winnings. It really does seem fantastic. I can’t help but imagine if I had the same level of “predictive ability” I would see reality very differently. It seems to have a lot of implications.

Even online gaming would be different if you can predict when any critical-rocket is coming your way. Or finding clothes at a store. I’m kind of thinking about that “lucky duck” from ducktales Gladstone takes Scrooge to Breakfast - YouTube

It seems the first step towards replicating your results, would be ME-training? Or similar things.

Thanks for “allaying” my fears.

“Certainly, some people have doubts or fears that produce a “self-limiting” outcome. A fear may be considered a mental belief or visualization of a negative result. That’s using MMI in a non-beneficial way.”

Thats a good thing to keep in mind while working on MMI.

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The METrainer download on CoreInvention.com is the basic tool, though I used to have an extensive group of applications/practice tools online.
No one has tested the download/installation yet (and given feedback). Please download and let me know if it works okay (Windows only so far). The Trainer has a selection of three entropy sources:

  1. PCQNG is a true random generator that harvests entropy from hardware in your PC. Ready to use without any additional hardware.
  2. Hardware uses a MED100Kxx generator if you have one. Connect the generator before selecting this source.
  3. Pseudorandom is just as it sounds – a purely deterministic but statistically very random generator built in.

Note, the generator in a slot machine is pseudorandom. Getting positive results (winning) is not done by predicting, but rather by matching or entangling the intention to win, in whatever form that takes, and observing the win. These are inseparable in a quantum sense, and it’s the player’s intention/mental influence that makes it so. The mechanism seems to be pressing the play button at a time that makes the intended results happen. Pressing the play button causes the present number of the continuously running random generator to be read, and that value maps to a list of possible wins or losses. Then the reels are made to display the resulting win or loss. (The losses are not entirely random, but rather sometimes a set of figures is displayed that seems “close” to being a winner – a little tease to encourage more play.)

Getting significant results (0.05 probability or less) using the METrainer in Predict mode with the Pseudorandom source suggests the possibility of shifting the odds enough to win – on average – at real slots. Of course, there are other psychological variables when betting real money in a casino. There are thousands of ways to win, not just a “Hit” that would be displayed on the METrainer. It’s necessary to look or “feel” past the mental clutter of the variety of visual/audible feedback that shows up on the slot machine.

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Most of my efforts are now directed toward expanding MMI awareness and especially to encouraging applications, hardware and business development. The new Core Invention website is halfway to where it should be, but it’s really hard to find a web designer who will work for money and stay with the project.

I can offer collaborations or partnerships, hardware, technology licensing and technical or business advice.

I started a project to develop a fundamentally more responsive MMI generator. The project is called “Zero-Energy Switch.” The energy required to change the output of the generator to an intended state should be zero or exceedingly small. Also it has to be mass producible and not cost a fortune. As usual, it’s much harder to build a working piece of technology than to develop the underlying theory.

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Hi Scott,

I downloaded this https://coreinvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/qng360_setup.zip Is this the right link? It does need some work. I’ll give the specific problems I found in a private message.

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Try:
https://coreinvention.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/METrainerPC-1.zip
Then follow installations instructions on the same page (Mind-Enabled)

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really interesting thread. randonautica certiainly helped raise public awareness of mmi to an extent, but it also created a bunch of issues that I still see today.

I have a few ideas for games completely different from randonautica that could possibly more precisely grab people’s attention towards MMI, but they are probably 4+ years out as I have much to develop before it is possible to even start an alpha.

An interestng anecdote about some kind of counter-force being present as to not disturb the MMI balance of the force, when I first started running fatum bot, a tree branch fell on my internet not once, but twiice withim the first few weeks. Then during one of our viral growth stages australia caught on fire and we had no access to a qrng. Those were weird coincidences.

I am hoping this community decentralizes the production and knowledge base of MMI (as was the fatum projects initial intention, and one of my greatest regrets failing to do so with randonauts) and that at some point someone will come up with a formula for making the topic blow up, but this time for real, not as seemingly some marketing bs.

I just did a small podcast last night that was very relevant to this subject, and I am hoping that will attract some researchers through the years.

The reason I am so interested in growing this place with a crowd of independent, curious people, is I tried the corporate format and most of our problems stemmed from pure greed and the dream of selling a company for millions of dollars, something that we never thought about when we started running the telegram bot. Decentralization takes away the need to manipulate people in order to ultimately have power and control, everyone can just create their own schism and instead of a tiny group of elites having this interesting knowledge, anyone with the will and curiosity can make a contribution.

If I had to say there was a counter force battling the dissemination of MMI knowledge, it was a lust for power or status.

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I continue to provide most core information to the public, though I don’t have the time to write about everything. This has been especially true while I am working on the new A.C.E. technology. I have at least 1000 hours in that project so far.

I think there is little to no chance there is a principle of nature that requires a “balance in the Force” related to MMI or A.C.E. That’s not to say there can’t be some kind of resistance. There are people’s belief systems that may be threatened, and they will certainly push back, even without knowing what they are pushing against. There is even the possibility that some form of “higher” mind, i.e., more advanced than we are consciously aware of, that could potentially resist or assist certain efforts. However, we are not really qualified to speculate on their motivations, which are doubtless different than ours.

It’s perfectly okay to make money from technology that took millions of dollars and decades to develop, but as you suggest, if making money is the primary motivation, the results will likely be disappointing. The technology is very hard and requires “seeing” and understanding things that are not yet manifested in our current reality. Approaching that from a materialistic perspective seems destined to fail.

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I don’t know what other corporate formats you ran but “pure greed” or “lust for status” have certainly never been on the agenda at Randonautica as far as I remember. Fame and riches have never been desired goals nor have they ever been realistic considering the fringe nature of our pursuits. None of us have gotten rich or famous.

This forum is about discussing MMI and bringing it to the public, as far as I recall, and not for personal grudges or smear campaigns.

Needless to say, Randonautica has contributed to open source projects, open sourced some of the tools that can be of use to other developers and will do much more in that regard in the next months, e.g. finally providing access to the API for curious people who want to experiment, and more.

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It seems we’ve reached a point where our only avenue for conversation is this public forum, which is far from ideal, but here we are. I wanted to clear the air about a few things, especially since direct communication isn’t an option right now because you privately blocked me.

First off, the story of Randonautica isn’t just about chasing dreams and exploring the unknown. It’s also been a journey marked by real ambitions, including the potential for significant commercial success. The involvement of well-known figures and my public discussions about the project’s commercial side were always about embracing both our innovative spirit and our ambition. When I used my moniker, it was a nod to the complex interplay between our adventurous goals and the reality of making something big happen in the commercial world.

I think it’s important to point out that not everyone involved today was there in the early, formative days of Randonautica. That’s not to say current contributions are less valuable, but the project’s direction and the decisions made along the way have been influenced by a wide range of visions and strategies. For example, what if hypothetically there was a time I was exploring partnerships that could have taken us to new heights—imagine the possibility of selling the game for $300 million, it’s a hint at the scale of what we were dreaming about.

Bringing in new talents, including yourself, was a strategic move during a crucial phase. Though I can’t spill all the beans due to confidentiality reasons, you and others know that it was about keeping our momentum and ensuring Randonautica’s continued evolution and success, and plenty of people here know why.

The decision to finally open up your API, something I’m genuinely excited about, was part of the original blueprint. It’s about giving back to the community and inviting more people to join this incredible journey.

However, finding ourselves hashing things out in public like this is far from what I envisioned. Randonauts has always been about breaking new ground and fostering a community of open, honest dialogue. It’s ironic—and frankly, a bit disappointing—that we’re in a situation where we’re avoiding direct conversations.

Looking ahead, I’m hoping we can find our way back to the basics of open communication and mutual respect that have been at the core of Randonauts from the start. Despite our current disagreements, the project’s heart has always been about innovation, exploration, and community. Let’s try to resolve our differences with the openness and integrity that Randonauts deserves.